Nogher 1911 census

Admin
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:52 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by Admin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:43 pm

Your enquiry regarding the surname Nogher is interesting. I wonder how do you know that it was listed in Irish on the 1911 census if you haven't been able to find them, or is it that you have already found the family but can't interpret what you have found?

It is an unusual surname, sometimes also seen as Noher, McNogher, Knogher and Knocker. Edward MacLysaght give the Irish for the Ulster McNoghers as Mac Conchobhair (son of Connor). Mac Concobhair can be seen anglicised as McConnor, O'Connor or just Connor.

A tip for interpreting surnames given in Irish on the 1911 census household returns is to double-check them against the house and building return, where the name will also be given in English. This tip is courtesy of a member of our committee.

The family you are looking for may be listed under the name 'Mac Conchobhar' in the townland of Drumcrew, Castleblayney.
Last edited by Admin on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Admin
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:52 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by Admin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:19 pm

Tattyreagh South is very near the townland of Doohamlat. If you have a look on our links page (Place-names and mapping section, http://www.clogherhistory.ie/place-names-and-mapping) you will find a link to the townlands in Monaghan, a county council site (http://193.178.1.178/Monaghan%5FgPlan/). This site allows you to search townland names. When you click on a townland name in the search results, you will be able to view and navigate a map of the area, even zooming in to aerial photographs.

jjdoran
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by jjdoran » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:11 pm

Hi Marie, I see your looking for your ancestors in Doohamlet, something that shouldn’t be too hard to achive considering it’s such a small place. I gather from your note that you have visited county Monaghan at some stage I wonder did you visit Doohamlet.
The people you are looking for were O’Connor and they are in the 1911 census in the townland of Tonnyscallon as you have already discovered. They were known as Nogher in the locality which seems from previous correspondence to have been a form of O’Connor. They were the gatehouse keepers at the level crossing in that townland for a period. The head of the house James died and the family moved from the gatehouse sometime after to the townland of Doohamlet it’s self. They purchased a farm, and Cornelius and his mother lived there till the mid to late 1940s. The house is still standing and remains almost in tact as it was then Cornelius and Mary Ann left it. If you lookup Griffith valuations/Ireland on the internet you should get the holding its number 4 (Doohamlet townland). Located just south of Doohamlet cross with the dwelling very close to the roadside. Unfortunately Cornelius had an accident as a boy and was quite restricted in his movements. When his mother was unable to take care of him they both moved in with Kate and her family in Lettereagh Annyalla. She had married a man by the name of Eccles and their descendants are living around the area today. The house they moved to still exist but Eccles no longer own it. When Mary Ann and Cornelius died they were buried in Annyalla graveyard. There is a headstone showing Eccles Lettereagh O’Connor Clontibret O’Connor Doohamlet.(Suggests they had connections in Clontibret.)
AS you can see from the 1911 census Mary Ann had eleven children all together where as only seven are shown, a resident in Doohamlet who knew Cornelius and Mary Ann quite well told me there was another son Charles who emigrated to England and a daughter Margaret who Married McAdam in Tattyreagh south. She is show in 1911 as being married to James McAdam. They have no children in 1911 but they did have five children later, Harry, Jim, Una, Annie, and Catherine. Three of them married that I know of, Annie had no children, Catherine married a Cunningham from Ballybay and immigrated to USA. Harry immigrated to Cambridge and had at least one son call Peter. The house was sold in1959 has been renovated in recent years but is vacant at present. The McAdams were master stone masons and many of the houses they built are still standing today.
Of the children listed in 1911 Bernard was heavily involved with the struggle for independence with the local brigade and after the setting up of the Free State joined the Garda and was stationed in Dublin. Charles as I stated earlier immigrated to England where abouts unknown. There was another sister (name unknown) who apparently immigrated to Scotland and married a man by the name of Smyth it was suggested that she had a son who was a Roman Catholic priest. I see your surname is Smyth perhaps you have a piece of the gig saw???. That leaves just one of the eleven children unaccounted for.
It would appear your great grandmothers (Mary Ann mentioned above) maiden name was Casey from the townland of Modeece also in Doohamlet. I would need more time to check it out but if it was true then your great great grand parents are shown in 1911 as Bernard and Alice Casey in Modeece and a son James living with them.
I would be grateful if you could let me know what happened the other children named in 1911 in case some other branches of your family come looking for their ancestors, ie Winifred, Peter, James and Bridget. Was your grandmother one of these or is she the mysterious missing woman as you have not mentioned her name?

mcarragher
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:59 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by mcarragher » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:21 pm

Hi JJ Doran, Maria and "Admin",

Just came across your site today and was very interested to see the reference to James Noher in Drumcrew. I hope to establish the connection to my family.

My name is Michael Carragher - living in New York. My parents are Michael Carragher (Moneyvolan) and Mary Boyle (Drumcrew). My mom's parents are Peter Boyle and Catherine Warnock. Peter Boyle's parents are Edward Boyle and Agnes Jackson. Agnes Jackson's parents are Peter Jackson and Ann O'Connor. I have Ann's mother as Nancy Meehan, but don't have a father's first name. So, the farm in Drumcrew was owned as I understand it: O'Connor, Jackson, Boyle, Boyle.

I would love to establish that Ann O'Connor is related to the James Nogher (in Griffiths shown on same property #7 with Peter Jackson) and James Noher in the 1911 Census.

The 1911 Census don't correspond to any maps the way the Griffiths documents do, right?

I wonder if there is any connection to the family in Doohamlet that you're talking about. I don't think we could ever prove that. I was there this past May and visited the Sacred Heart Church there to see the grave of my gg-grandfather John McQuillan (on my dad's side).

I also need help translating the Gaelic on the 1911 page for James Noher.

Look forward to participating more - I have registered to take on a One Name Study for Carragher - visit http://carragherfamily.org.

Best regards,
Mike Carragher
Flushing, New York

jjdoran
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by jjdoran » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:23 am

Hi Maria, I don’t have a great deal of news for you unfortunately. I don’t understand why you think the Smyth’s had some connection with County Cavan. Your great grand father Owen Smyth states on the 1901 census that he was born in County Monaghan and his age is 65. His wife Mary/Marie has the maiden name McGinity. She confuses her age between 1901 (age 58) and 1911 (age 77) (She has aged 19 years in the space of 10) If the 1911 age is correct then she could have came from one of two families in the neighbouring townland of Rossollus. It would but her in the right age category with members of the other families. If Owens and Mary got married after 1st Jan 1864 then there marriage would be recorded in the general register office in Dublin www.groireland.ie unfortunately these are not available on line you will have to visit.
Lizzie aged 22 in 1901 married Dan McBride from the neighbouring townland of Corderrybane aged 27. He was listed as a shoemaker which was handy as she was a dressmaker. I don’t know how many children they had but a son Pat inherited the farm and he married Margaret Kelly from Sheetrim and they had six children, five boys and one girl. THeir son Sean now lives on the farm. Two immigrated to England and one to Australia.
In Griffith valuations 1861 that holding where Smyth's and then McBride’s lived is listed as James Quigley number 13 Corderryduff. You can look this map up on www.askaboutireland.ie
I might have a chat with Sean McBride sometime soon to see if he has any additional information.

mcarragher
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:59 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by mcarragher » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:08 am

Hi Maria,

I'm traveling to Castleblayney this coming May and will be near Annyalla cemetery. In a previous post someone said:
"When Mary Ann and Cornelius died they were buried in Annyalla graveyard. There is a headstone showing Eccles Lettereagh O’Connor Clontibret O’Connor Doohamlet."

Let me know if you would like a photo.

My family are there in Annyalla.

I never heard a reply to my inquiry about my relations to Nogher that is listed in Drumcrew - I think I'll start a new post.

Regards,
Mike Carragher

elainepink1
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:50 am

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by elainepink1 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:21 am

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could help me, I'm very new to this but have recently become very interested in Family History. My Grandfather came from Castleblaney, Ireland, to Scotland, his name was John Thomas Mason he was born on the 26 August 1784. He had three brothers William born 1876, who also went to Scotland, George 1890, James Andrew 1873 and possibly a fourth, called Frank. He also had two sisters, Margaret Ann, 1870 -1955 who when to the US. I have lots of info about her and Rose Mason 1871 who I think also went to Scotland. His parents were William Mason born on the 17 June 1844 in Castleblaney and his mother was Margaret Noher born in 1848. I contacted the parish priest in Castleblaney some years back and received some info and he said that their were Noher's in Drumcrew. I wrote there and recieved a reply from someone called Patricia McMahon whose maiden name was Nahor her mother was Susan but didn't say her fathers name but he died in 1956.
I know the Noher/Nahor/Nogher name is very unusual so I expect it is all the same family. If anyone can help me further with any ideas or leads, I would really appreciate it.

Elaine

Paul Nohar
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census, my great great grand father was charles

Post by Paul Nohar » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:50 pm

elainepink1 wrote: Hi

I was wondering if anyone could help me, I'm very new to this but have recently become very interested in Family History. My Grandfather came from Castleblaney, Ireland, to Scotland, his name was John Thomas Mason he was born on the 26 August 1784. He had three brothers William born 1876, who also went to Scotland, George 1890, James Andrew 1873 and possibly a fourth, called Frank. He also had two sisters, Margaret Ann, 1870 -1955 who when to the US. I have lots of info about her and Rose Mason 1871 who I think also went to Scotland. His parents were William Mason born on the 17 June 1844 in Castleblaney and his mother was Margaret Noher born in 1848. I contacted the parish priest in Castleblaney some years back and received some info and he said that their were Noher's in Drumcrew. I wrote there and recieved a reply from someone called Patricia McMahon whose maiden name was Nahor her mother was Susan but didn't say her fathers name but he died in 1956.
I know the Noher/Nahor/Nogher name is very unusual so I expect it is all the same family. If anyone can help me further with any ideas or leads, I would really appreciate it.

Elaine

Annette McD
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by Annette McD » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:06 pm

To Maria Smyth.

Hi I came across you on clogherhistory.ie and you were talking about a Smyth family of Corderryduff, Castleblayney, Co Monaghan

My husbands mother was Mary Ann Smyth and I have been looking into their family history for a few years now. Mary Ann has passed away and my husband immediate family don't know much about their ancestors. Your information has answered a few questions for my and has left me a bit confused at the same time. I will explain later.

Owen Smyth married Maria McGinnity on 21st April 1868. His father was Owen Smyth, Corderryduff and her father was Edward McGinnity,Tullycarragh (Tullycara). On their marriage certificate it states that Owen Smyth (groom) was a widower. He was aged 30 and Maria was aged 25. Their witnesses were James Duffy and Elizabeth McGinnity.

They went on to have 7 children Patrick born 20th March 1869, Alice born 5th May 1871, James born 22nd October 1872, Edward born 28 June 1874, Owen born 12th September 1876, Elizabeth born 7th September 1878 and Arthur born 21 February 1881.

I then found the 1901 census and found Owen 63 and Maria 58 living in Corderryduff with their daughters Lizzie 22 and Alice 27. In the 1911 census were Owen Smyth 75 and Maria 77, their daughter Lizzie 30 and 2 grand children, born in England. This is when the mystery started - where did these children come from? The census also said that Owen and Maria had 7 children but that only 5 were alive in 1911 - which 2 had died? I asked my inlaws, but none of them had heard of any relations born in England. I guessed that maybe they had been born in England and that maybe their mother had died and that the grandparents were looking after them. I looked for any more information on the children but came up with a blank.

Elizabeth (lizzie) married Daniel McBride on 9th May 1912. He was from Drummuck and she was from Corderryduff. Both townlands are beside each other.

Owen Smyth died 8th March 1913 aged 76 and his daughter, Lizzie McBride was present at his death. Maria Smyth died 13th March 1924 aged 73 and Owen Smyth (grandson) was present at her death. The address given on death certificate was Main Street, Castleblayney. Maybe this is where Owen Smyth (grandson) was living at that time.

In your information you answered the questions about where the children Owen and Nellie came from. That your grandfather, Edward was their father and that their mother had died. You also mentioned that Patrick was with Edward in Liverpool. I then knew that Edward, Patrick, Elizabeth, Alice and Owen were the 5 surviving children of Owen and Maria Smyth. I haven't found any death records for Arthur or James.

Then some information you gave confused me. You mentioned that your grandfathers brother, Owen, had a daugher, Breige and ended up living in Dublin. As I have already said, my mother-in-law was originally Mary Ann Smyth, born in Corderryduff on 17th February 1913 to Owen Smyth, Corderryduff and Margaret McDonnell, Tattyreagh. Owen Smyth was born 12th September 1876 in Corderryduff. Owen Smyth and Margaret McDonnell married 28th February 1911. At the time of his marriage he was 40 and Margaret was 23. They had 2 daughers, Mary Ann and Alice. Their mother, Margaret, died 21st June 1916 aged 31 years. Owen Smyth married for the second time, to Mary Elizabeth Marray on 6th July 1922. Owen Smyth died 2nd April 1946 aged 75 and Alice Smyth, his daugher, was present at his death.

I'm wondering how do know that your grandfathers brother, Owen had a daughter Breige and that they lived in Dublin. This has put a spanner in the works for me regarding the Smyth family. All information points to my Owen Smyth being Owen Smyth and Maria McGinnitys son.

I hope that some of the information above is off interest to you and maybe you could clear up the confusion for me.

Thanks, Annette

Annette McD
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Nogher 1911 census

Post by Annette McD » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:42 pm

Hi Maria,
Annette here. Thank you for your quick reply. I was convinced that the Smyths I had found in Corderryduff were connected to my Smyth family and now I think maybe not. But I still have some queries.

First of all, in the 1861 Griffiths Valuation, there is no mention of any Smyth family living in Corderryduff, so where did they come from?

On the 1901 census there is no mention of Owen Smyth living with his parents Owen and Maria Smyth. Then when I found a Owen Smyth living with his uncle, Peter Hagan and aunt, Alice Hagan, I assumed that was where he was living. The 1911 census shows Owen living with his uncle, Peter Hagan and Owens wife, Maggie. My in-laws told me that there was a connection with their grandparents and the Hagans, but I'm not sure what it is. I will have to make this my next mission, to find a connection between the Hagans and the Smyths. If this is my Owen Smyth, I wonder where was your Owen Smyth on the 1901 and 1911 census!

My in-laws also told me that they are related to Sean McBride, who I think you have met. When I saw that Lizzie Smyth was married to Dan McBride, I thought I had the connection there.

I was also told that they were connected to Quigleys. James Quigley is mentioned on the 1861 Griffiths Valuations. Someone, in their correspondence to you, mentioned that the Smyths were on the same 'holding' as James Quigley.

When my Owen Smyths wife, Margaret (Maggie) died in 1916, their two daughters, Mary Ann (Maisie) and Alice, went to live with the McGinnity family also living in Corderryduff but not related to Maria McGinnity (Smyth). They stayed there even though their father re-married. Apparently they were happy where they were and didn't like his new wife. My brother-in-law remembers his grandfather, Owen, and said that he wasn't really a nice person, very cross. He was only a young boy when his grandfather died in 1946 but remembers a little about him. So, if my brother-in-law remembers his grandfather living and dying in Corderryduff, then he cannot be your grandfathers brother.

Its hard to believe that in such a small townland as Corderryduff that there were 2 Smyth families and 2 McGinnity families that weren't related.

I'm as far back as I was when I first started this search now. There are a few queries that may never be answered. It would be nice to go back 100 years, for a day, and get all the questions answered!

Thanks for replying to me. Happy Searching!
Annette

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